In this episode, we are joined by Shawn VanDerziel, President & CEO of the National Association of Colleges & Employers (NACE), to discuss their report on the 2025 Job Outlook for graduates. Shawn highlights what competencies employers are looking for, where skills-based hiring is happening and how learners can best prepare themselves for the job market.
To read NACE’s 2025 Job Outlook report, see here:
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Matt Sterenberg (00:02.136)
Sean, welcome to the podcast.
Shawn VanDerziel (00:04.386)
Hey there, how are you today?
Matt Sterenberg (00:06.39)
I’m doing great. You know, sometimes I just say that, you know, it’s a way to convince yourself, you know, you’re like, I’m doing good, doing fantastic. We’re doing great. So, so Sean, how did you get into this work? I’m curious. You know, did you always grow up thinking I want to work for the national association of colleges and employers? How did this, how did this start?
Shawn VanDerziel (00:13.998)
I totally get that.
Shawn VanDerziel (00:26.676)
Yeah, it was really high on my list. That’s right. One of the top employers I was going to look at. Actually, I had no idea what I was going to do when I graduated college. And I kind of had one of those careers that was not all over the place, but one thing led to another. And it actually had to do with transferable skills and being able to use one experience to lead to another experience.
I started in higher education and student admissions because I was an overly active student who engaged in all student activities in college. And it naturally led me to start my career in higher education. I did that for a few years, got really burned out and tried to figure out what can I do with this? And rather than recruiting students, I figured out I could recruit employees.
for a company and I found a company that was looking to hire college students specifically, for, Fortune 500 companies. And I joined their ranks, did that for a while, got really burned out again because I was working for an outsource service and I was doing a ton of traveling. and again, trying to figure out, what do I do with this? Well, I’d always want to work at a museum, but I never had the skills to work.
at a museum. I couldn’t figure out what I would actually do. I was one of those people who applied for every job at museums but never had the qualifications to actually do any of those jobs. Right. Yeah, yeah, I had no clue. But now I finally had a skill that a museum was looking for, which was recruiting employees to be a recruiter for the actual museum. And I thought, well, that’s it.
Matt Sterenberg (02:04.728)
So I’m like, what’s your PhD in? Like, are you a pale? Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Shawn VanDerziel (02:20.046)
And I was lucky enough to get the job. And then I stayed there for 25 years, almost 25 years. Yeah, the Field Museum of Natural History in Chicago. Yeah, which is one of the worst.
Matt Sterenberg (02:24.652)
What museum was it?
Matt Sterenberg (02:28.812)
Yeah, I’ve been there many, many times. grew up in the Chicago suburbs. So we went there for like every year for like 10 years. You know, I remember they did a contest to name the T-Rex that they had like for elementary school students. And then they ended up just like naming it on their own. They didn’t take any of the kids suggestions. They’re like, we’re going to call it Sue and call it that.
Shawn VanDerziel (02:36.396)
Hahaha!
Shawn VanDerziel (02:41.816)
That’s right.
Shawn VanDerziel (02:49.39)
Yes, based on the person’s name who actually found the dinosaur. That’s right.
Matt Sterenberg (02:56.416)
Yeah. Yeah. Well, your story is kind of a good segue into what we’re talking about today, which is NACE’s 2025 job outlook for graduates. And you said you kind of in a roundabout way, like you had all these skills, you had all these experiences in college and how do I parlay those? And so you put out a really wonderful report. We’ll link to it in the description of this episode, but it’s really fascinating. And a lot of the folks that listen to this are in education. And so
You know, give us the high level overview of what you learned. This is something that you regularly put out. What was the impact of this most recent report? Anything that sticks out to you.
Shawn VanDerziel (03:35.926)
Yeah, well, we actually did something a little different this year with the report where we dove pretty deep into what college recruiters are doing related to their skills-based hiring. So we went a little deeper than we have in the past. There are some baselines that we want to cover that we usually do. But in addition to those, and we can dive pretty deep into all of that information, we take a look at every year.
how are graduates from this year going to fare out in the labor market when they’re heading into the real world? We do the survey twice. We do it once in the fall for the upcoming graduating class, and then we update it again in the spring. And this year was no different. We did so. In the fall, we found that recruiters were going to increase their hiring. So this was in October.
of 2024. And as a whole, we were planning to see about a 7 % increase in hiring of graduates for the class of 2025. Now, that is coming off of a decrease from 2024. And so this was really good news. A lot’s happened in the world since October and
We’ve been hearing a lot on the news about the economy. We redid the survey again in February and March. We closed it at the end of March and now we have found that those predictions have changed. Employers are now looking to basically be about flat with last year. The increase is very modest, less than a percent, which isn’t surprising with all the news that we hear.
employers are being much more conservative in their approach to hiring. There are lots of employers who are hiring though, so I don’t want there to be any misunderstanding of that. There are a lot of employers that are hiring. Every industry is hiring. There’s no one industry that’s being hit super hard. There are employers within each industry that are still hiring, but when you take it as a whole, we’re not seeing much of an increase over last year.
Shawn VanDerziel (05:58.766)
which is a little concerning because we knew that hiring was already down.
Matt Sterenberg (06:02.912)
And I want to get into, that all makes sense. It’s got to be hard to continue to keep up given the changing landscape and not necessarily a fun thing to have to continue to go back. When does it make sense? You know, you don’t want your data to be outdated right away, but it’s the changing landscape constantly. And I, but I also think that speaks to the challenges of doing this work, right? Like how do we provide relevant insight to education? How quickly can these things change? And then also.
without getting political, it’s just like, these things can change very quickly. I I graduated in 2008. you know, I was probably pretty naive at the time. I’m like, I’m getting a job. And it’s like, that’s like not a great time to get a job. But also like you could make the case that college graduates are the cheapest, you know, if anybody’s hiring, this could be potentially a good opportunity for people to come in and.
start off, you don’t need as much money when you’re graduated from college. So, you might not know any different, but I want to talk about skills-based hiring. We’ve had a few episodes on skills-based hiring. talked with Amanda Winters from the national governor’s association on skills-based hiring. And basically, you know, can you give the audience an idea of what we mean with skills-based hiring? Cause I think a lot of people would go, well, of course they’re hiring me on some skills. What do we actually mean by skills to base hiring?
Shawn VanDerziel (07:30.21)
Yeah, well, let me back up a little bit. probably was a time, absolutely, when recruiters who recruit primarily from college campuses did their recruiting very differently than the general population. So when they’re recruiting for the general population. So that’s a pretty big difference here that I do want to distinguish because even about
six, seven years ago, one of the primary drivers for recruitment on college campuses, the lever that was pulled most often for screening candidates was grade point average. So grade point average doesn’t always make an equivalent to skills. It may be knowledge, but it doesn’t necessarily mean skill.
depending upon where the students graduating, what they’re graduating with, right? So GPA was always high on the list, if not number one for many jobs. What we’re finding now is that that’s not the case anymore. again, as early as about six years ago, was about 75 % of campus recruiters were hiring by grade point average or screening by grade point average. And now that’s down.
closer to 38%. That’s a pretty dramatic shift over the years. And when we ask recruiters why they’ve made this change, they say for a number of reasons, but the biggest one is related to skills, that they’re really looking for skilled people to do the jobs and they’re looking to find ways in which to measure that. And then they also tell us a whole bunch of things related to it.
So what do they do if they’re not screening for GPA or even sometimes in addition to GPA? And what they’re doing is they’re looking for candidates who have had internship experiences. Internship experiences are so important. Whether that internship experience is with them as the employer or
Shawn VanDerziel (09:52.808)
somewhere in the industry in which they’re working. They’re also looking for academic major, so they’re still noodling around that, and they’re looking for general industry experience. So when they’re doing that initial screening, that’s kind of what they’re substituting for skills or how they’re getting the skills, because what they’re trying to do is to recognize something on their resume.
or in the questioning of the students that’s related to those experiences that may be similar to the experiences that they’ll have once they get to that employer. Now, I can also tell you that they are doing skills-based, about two thirds of the employers told us that they’re doing skills-based hiring. Of those that are doing the skills-based hiring,
Only about less than 25 % said that they do skills-based hiring always or all the time. 42 % said they do it most of the time. Okay, so between those two things, we’ve got 65 % of employers, of the employers who said they’re doing skills-based hiring doing it a lot of the time.
but still leaves a lot that aren’t always doing it or doing it a lot of the time. And those that are doing it, the vast majority are doing it. This may be surprising to folks, which is the vast majority are doing it at the interview stage. They’re not necessarily, yeah, they’re not necessarily doing it during the screening stage. You would think with the tools that are available today,
Matt Sterenberg (11:37.688)
I thought that was interesting.
Shawn VanDerziel (11:45.474)
that you would find that most recruiters would be using automated tools like AI to get at particular skills on a resume. They do some of that, of course. But remember, these are recent college graduates that these recruiters are going after. So they approach their recruitment just slightly differently than someone who may be more seasoned in the workforce. And so they wait to do that.
skills-based hiring in the interview process. And in the interview process, the way they’re doing that is through things, through processes like behavioral-based interviewing, right? Where they can ask for examples from the students about their experiences that will relate to the workplace. They can get very specific. We found less of the recruiters doing it in the screening process, even
way fewer doing it in the sourcing process. So I thought those were really interesting findings.
Matt Sterenberg (12:52.248)
Yeah, I just taking a step back, I look at some of the results that you shared. You know, people saying, we, we do it. And I’m always like, you my job is to be a little skeptical. I’m always like, well, do you, is it just mean you put skills in the job description, you know, which is pretty standard. Is that it? Are we talking about something a lot more unique in the sense that it’s, we don’t require degree. don’t talk about degree at all, you know,
That’s another part of the skills-based hiring conversation where we don’t want, you know, bachelor’s degree required. We’re only going to focus on the skills that you have, right? Or you have other short-term or other forms of credentials. We’re not just going to have this gate that says bachelor’s degree required and we’re making it true skills-based hiring. And then the other side of it is, yeah, no, we may have bachelor’s degree required, but we don’t necessarily care what major or what we really care about is the skills that you acquired in your
college experience and let’s talk about those. One of the really cool things that you do is you have your career readiness competencies that you’ve established at NACE. Tell us a little bit more about those career readiness competencies.
Shawn VanDerziel (14:03.17)
Yeah, H, you might know, I would like to add one more thing because you brought up something I think is really important that we found out before we get to the competencies, which I would love to do, which is that about half of our employers in completing our surveys did tell us that they have to agree equivalency measurements. That’s just about half. So it’s not everyone.
Matt Sterenberg (14:11.403)
Yeah, absolutely.
Shawn VanDerziel (14:29.804)
What’s really interesting about that is that when we dive deeper and we ask them who they are actually hiring, they’re still hiring people who have the bachelor’s degree. So even though
Matt Sterenberg (14:42.392)
Do you think that’s like a trust thing, like just like, feel more comfortable or is it that they actually think there is that level of value that they would be getting?
Shawn VanDerziel (14:53.908)
Well, think it has to do with, yeah, it has to do with how they value higher education, that they see it as a really efficient and effective way for people to gain skills quickly and to gain experiences quickly and the amount of learning and the learning curve that someone will have once they actually get on to the job. Also remember that
often times for roles that new college graduates are going to fill, particularly with larger companies. Those companies are looking for people that they can grow longer term. And they see folks who have the higher education experience, who have gone through a degree program as being better prepared more quickly to obtain those higher level positions.
whether it be advanced positions within that field or it be management positions, which are critically important to the pipeline of every large company. So there’s a lot wrapped into this all in one. But I found that to be really heartening around what’s actually happening on the ground. We also know from previous serving that we’ve done of employers that 70 %
of entry level professional jobs still require a degree. And so there are lots of companies that are saying that they are dropping degree requirements, but mostly they’re dropping them where they should have dropped them anyways. Because of degree inflation, the job shouldn’t have required the degree to begin with or that level of degree to begin with. And I’m glad about that. It should be dropped.
whole scale.
Matt Sterenberg (16:48.536)
And I’m glad you brought up the management positions. You know, the, we’ve talked to so many people on this podcast about, you know, quote unquote, alternative credentials, micro credentials, badges, stackable credentials, all this stuff. And I think it’s, we have to be honest about our, what is the currency of these credentials? What does it get me? Right. And we’re trying to do that. It’s, you know, this is all pretty new. What does this actually lead to?
And then being honest about, well, this might get you your next job, but what’s, what about two jobs from now? Right. You know, you, this got me here, but I don’t want to be, you know, doing manual labor 15 years from now. I want to be in management or I want to lead a team. want to be an owner operator, whatever it may be. And so I think we do have to be conscious of, okay, short-term credentials. How do we build that in? What do they mean? But then also like.
What is the long-term impact of focusing on short-term goals? And you bring up the degree. And I think that’s why stackability is kind of a hot topic and very interesting because it’s like, how do we still continue to award these newer forms of credentials, but on the path to a degree so that the learner has a little bit of nimbleness and falling back on that degree, as you highlight, it’s still very critical. There’s still a lot of opportunities that require the degree.
So kind of holding those two things together and thinking about the long-term prospects for a graduate, think is something we need to continuously revisit as we think about these new forms of credentials.
Shawn VanDerziel (18:31.86)
absolutely. And what we know also from our research is that employers don’t understand the credentials yet, the alternative credentials. Yeah, they don’t.
Matt Sterenberg (18:41.132)
That’s the big question, isn’t it? Like every time we go to these conversations, the Badge Summit, the One Ed Tech Conference, it’s always like, we’re doing all these things in education. It’s like, do they know what we’re doing over here?
Shawn VanDerziel (18:52.45)
Right, well, I mean, they see them, but our research has been showing that they’re not using them yet. So they’re telling us they have promise and sure, but they don’t know what they really mean right now. So they’re not willing to substitute quite yet, except for highly technical roles, right? Like, so if there’s a highly technical role and it’s a, someone’s gone through a bootcamp for a particular programming language, that’s very different.
than other kinds of credentialing that are out there, certificates you might be able to get. And employers aren’t willing to rely on that yet. They’ll use it as one piece potentially, but they’re not there yet. And so it’s up to all of us to make a little bit more sense of that. And I think that’s going to come. It’s inevitable for it to happen. But it does lead us to your question around competencies. Because
What we hear from employers and what they’re most interested in is getting through the gaps that exist. Because they do want employees who will be able to grow with them. They want employees that show lots of promise, etc, etc. But oftentimes students lack the ability to communicate what they’ve learned, right? And therefore credentialing, right? So it’s a way to have that student to be able to show that like, yeah, they actually learned a skill or they learned a competency or they learned something, right?
And so that’s awesome. But we really do need to focus in on exactly that, which is helping the learner to understand fully in everything that they do within their programs, whether it’s in the classroom or outside of the classroom, just as importantly. All of those experience and how to articulate them back to an employer. And when I say that, I mean.
in all of their written materials, whether it’s a resume, whether it’s a cover letter, to the interview process, to the assessments that they’re completing, et cetera, that they need to fully be able to articulate that, hey, they did a classroom project. And in that classroom project, they actually analyzed a whole lot of data. Therefore, they used their critical thinking skills and did so superbly. They worked in a…
Shawn VanDerziel (21:16.366)
pretty large team of people to get that done. so they had to collaborate highly. They took the lead, they became the leader, they presented the material, had great verbal communication skills and submitted the written report, which was great written communication skills. And then all the other things that go around it, right? So that’s one really simple example, but students aren’t taking credit for it. So how do we help them to take credit for what they’ve done that can…
actually be applied to the workplace and that’s the challenge. And that’s where we get to the skill, get to the competency, and get to these screening questions that an employer might be asking and ensuring that those students have the examples to give.
Matt Sterenberg (22:01.921)
Yeah, and that’s a lot of the conversations we’re having too. We’ve talked with Elon University about the experiential transcript that they launched that, you know, people call it a comprehensive learner record of almost everyone who’s actually done an initiative like this has highlighted the power of the artifact, which is, you have this document that highlights everything you’ve done rather than just a transcript, which is you highlighted GPA is not as
important as it once was. And it’s just, it’s a list of courses and credits and grades. What does it really tell me about you as a student? What they’ve highlighted those take the artifact away, being able to communicate to the student what they’ve learned throughout their college. Like you did this, remember, be proud of it. Here’s how you talk about study abroad. You know, instead of saying, I went to Australia. It was awesome. Be like, no, tell us what it meant for you in terms of your cultural competency.
how it enabled you to communicate better. And so a lot of these documents, it’s like, yes, we want to send it to employers. I want to include it with my resume. All that’s true, but it also can just help you build your resume. It’s not just about the artifact of having this experiential transcript. It’s about teaching the student what they learned, which sounds kind of funny. But you have to be able to communicate this in an interview setting.
Remember all the cool stuff you did. You highlighted all this stuff you did in college. You were volunteering for everything. You’re in clubs, organizations, internships. How do we communicate the things that we’ve already done? And I think that’s kind what we need to address. Like, is there a skills gap or is there a skills communication gap? Like we just need to have students communicate better the things that they’ve actually done, you know, and what employers are actually looking for.
Shawn VanDerziel (23:50.208)
I would agree. so we have these eight competencies that we put out, the NACE competency model. And it’s been adopted in about close to 70 % of college campuses so far in some format. And so we have a lot of data from both students and employers around our competencies and what they mean. And without fail, every single year when we do the surveying of students about their competency attainment and
how they would rate themselves versus how the employers then rate graduating students on those same competencies. But there’s a huge gap. There is a gap, except for one of the competencies. And the competency that where the students rate themselves lower than the employers rate the students, it’s in technology. so, yeah, and so.
Matt Sterenberg (24:38.87)
Yeah, yeah, that one stuck out to me, too. I was like, yeah, that makes sense. Yeah.
Shawn VanDerziel (24:45.998)
Part of this equation, and you’re getting at it here, which is that students have to be able to take an honest assessment of where they are on the spectrum of that skill or that competency. And that’s why employers aren’t willing to get to the credential yet. Because they may have gotten the credential, but where really were they on that spectrum?
of those competencies or those skills, right? Did they meet the minimum? And what did the minimum really mean? Because that student may have an overinflation of what they actually learned. And that’s what the employer does not want, right? They don’t want someone coming in and being all cocky or whatever about what they know if they really don’t know it. And so herein lies the heart of the matter that we’ve all got to start solving for.
Matt Sterenberg (25:43.32)
Yeah, but for a student, you know, to put, you know, go back, go back in time and remember what I was like. I’m like, if you asked me to self assess, it’s like, well, I don’t really know what the standard is. Like I’m, you know, in a group setting when we worked on a group project, I was one of the better ones in my group, but it’s like, that doesn’t mean I’m good at it in a workplace setting. So it’s like self-assessment at that time has got to be hard for students because they don’t really know what the standard is. They’ve never had a
full-time 40-hour week job like we have today.
Shawn VanDerziel (26:16.098)
That’s right. And so that’s why you have to have folks who are willing to mentor and are willing to step in to give that student an honest assessment. So the students got to be able to do the assessment, but someone supervising that has to do an assessment as well so that they can meet right to figure out if they are equivalent in their thinking around it. So whether that be a professor with assignments or with students done, someone externally, an intern supervisor, work study supervisor.
club advisor, you name it. So we’ve put together an assessment tool as an example, so that it, and it’s been tested, it’s been validated, it’s a reliable tool where it does allow someone to rate themselves. And then a supervisor or whoever’s supervising activity can rate the student as well on each of those competencies and behaviors associated with the competency. So you can get one level deeper.
We’re going to be soon be able to have a lot of data on this because we have partnered with two organizations who technology based to implement this whole scale. And we’ll be taking all of the data on all of the students who have assessed themselves and their supervisors have assessed them. And we’re going to be able to see how students are actually doing.
related to all of the competencies and the behaviors and to see if there’s improvement based upon feedback or if there’s not. And I think that’s gonna be a real test.
Matt Sterenberg (27:57.462)
And just to go over the career readiness competencies really briefly, critical thinking, communication, teamwork, professionalism, technology, equity, equity and inclusion, career and self development and leadership. And I read those in order of how employers would rank, excuse me, rank those by level of importance. The striking thing when I look at your report is the more important they are, the less proficient.
They view recent graduates. So critical thinking, 96 % would say it’s very important, but in terms of how they would rate the proficiency, it’s about 56%. And there’s this huge gap in terms of, and I also think it’s, these are the hardest things to kind of prove and credential. And you talk about soft skills or people call them durable skills or transversal skills, skills that you’re going to need in multiple different professions.
And I think that’s a striking thing, but that’s why a lot of these institutions are incorporating the career readiness competencies in some form of credential. How do we think about these? But to your point, the evidence is so critical. We don’t want credentials to just be participation or like, what does this actually mean? How do I read this credential? And so it has to be trusted because there is a gap between what they view as important and the proficiency of recent graduates.
And how do we begin to bridge that gap both in communication and then an actual proficiency I think is a really interesting point.
Shawn VanDerziel (29:27.95)
That’s right. And I would add to that, that when we asked the students what they’re interested in learning about, this year was the first time they matched exactly. So what I mean by that is, is that we asked the students like, which of the competencies would you like to develop the most in? The top three were the same top three of the employers. And that too was really eye opening that students, that learners
are taking some self-assessment and they are beginning to understand what employers are looking for. And then I would take that one step further. We also survey students about what they’re looking for in future employers. And in the top five each year in the last few years, skills have been there. And the top five things they’re looking for from their future employer. What I mean by that is,
They’re looking to develop specific skills for that particular kind of job. And then they’re also looking to develop things like you mentioned, durable skills that they can take with them anywhere for any kind of job for long term career and self management, right? They get it. They get it. These students are learners are very different than when I went to college in terms of how in tune they are to this idea of skills. We just got to ramp it up and bring it to the next level for
Matt Sterenberg (30:56.3)
Early on in my career at Parchment, there was one of the executives I thought did a really good job of explaining what they wanted Parchment to be. It was a younger company at the time and he really made the point of, I want this to be a formative place in your employment life. And I thought that was a really good perspective because what it communicated was they care about the development of
of all of us, of the employees. And they’re viewing this as one stop along, like I may go another place where you’re not going to work at one place your entire life. So I think, and given what you’re saying is employees want it, the company wants it. How do we start to develop? Because the expectation, we just highlighted the gap of importance versus proficiency. Well, how realistic is it for people to graduate college and be like, I’m completely proficient in all workplace matters, you know?
Shawn VanDerziel (31:54.126)
Right. Right. That’s right.
Matt Sterenberg (31:54.946)
But to frame it up as this is a form, we want this to be a formative experience. We want you to learn something and obviously contribute to the company along the way. But that framing was so cool for me to hear. that’s turns out that’s what people do want to hear. And that’s actually what the company wants to like. And if you get those experiences, you’re more likely to stay probably develop here, become a leader. And so it is one of those things like everyone wants to get to this destination.
lot more difficult to actually get there and a lot of work and time and energy to actually put in the resources to make that a reality.
Shawn VanDerziel (32:28.504)
That’s right, and I love everything you just said, and I hope all of your listeners heard it loud and clear, because probably a lot of folks who are listening to this are managers or employers themselves. And so thinking about how do you sell the job that you have in front of you that you need to fill, and how do you maximize the person in that job?
How do you help them to feel fulfilled in that job? It’s all wrapped into exactly what you just talked about, which is taking the interest in the human and really thinking about helping that person to grow. And that’s what that person wants to.
Matt Sterenberg (33:08.93)
So we have a lot of people in education listening to this. What do you want educators, higher ed, K-12, to take away from this? What do you want them to read from your research and reports? How should this impact what they do on a day-to-day basis?
Shawn VanDerziel (33:26.946)
Yeah, hey, look, employers are always going to say that there’s a gap. There’s never going to be as much. Yeah, yeah, yeah, like this should be no surprise. This is going, this has been going on for forever. It’s going to continue to happen. So the question is, are we meeting the current and the upcoming needs of the workforce to ensure that those employers are coming to my campus to recruit my students? Because my students have what it takes.
Matt Sterenberg (33:32.566)
So don’t feel bad when you hear it. Yeah, yeah.
Shawn VanDerziel (33:56.942)
to succeed. So the takeaway here is, is how are you preparing the students to do exactly that? To prove they have what it takes to succeed. And, and as I mentioned earlier, that part of it’s the sales job. What is it that you are inherently doing with every single student that an employer can rely on from you and your organization and the programs in which you’re in? And then the other one, which is evidenced in
some of the data I presented, which is they are really looking at those skills and the competencies in two primary places. One, what’s on that resume? Does a student have internship experience? Get them practical experience. Get them practical experience in the industry in some kind of way. So that’s so important. So bring industry into the classroom.
have the student go and do an internship with the industry, et cetera, et And then as we talked about, most of the skills-based hiring is happening in the interview process. So ensure that these students can truly articulate their learnings.
Matt Sterenberg (35:12.056)
that’s a great plug for our we’re talking to Beth Maronstein about experiential learning for our next episode and how they incorporate that into everything that they do. But Sean, this has been a lot of fun. I’ll put a link to the report. Check out Naces work. A lot of institutions are trying to incorporate it as much as possible into how they credential how they think about programs and prepare students. This has been a lot of fun, Sean. Thanks for joining me.
Shawn VanDerziel (35:38.71)
It’s been great to be here. Hope to come back again. See you soon.
